CAW Inc.

Calling a Cease Fire

Calling a Cease Fire

I was not expecting to make any friends when I posted my series on libertarianism.   I expected to make some enemies when I posted my opinions on libertarianism and the occult.  The last thing that I expected was to find myself in an actual dialog with members of the Church of All Worlds.   I spent this morning on the telephone with CAW’s communications officer.  What can I say?   The man is very good at his job.   He managed to change some of my opinions of Church of All Worlds.

I am not going to retract my opinion of CAW as a political entity.  I still believe that Church of All Worlds is part of the reactionary wave that hit the nation during the Reagan years and looks to seek answers in a past that never happened.   This goes along with my opinion that religion and the concept of god/dess is a reactionary belief.   I think the world would be a much better place without the concept of divinity.   I would also be more receptive to the entire CAW concept if they would just cut the religious aspect out of it.

The founder of CAW sent me an email which denied that CAW was a libertarian church.  The founder says one thing and followers say another. This is a basic problem with religion in America.  The followers always take the ideas of the founders and “Americanize” them.   The CAW I was introduced to was a bastion of American concepts like the Protestant Work Ethic, sin, and libertarianism.

I am not going to change my stand on polyamory.  I feel strongly that HIV and STDs make polyamory a dangerous idea.   I also think that polyamory is extremely sexist.   It puts the weight of the risks on the women.   The closest I will come to an agreement on polyamory is to agree to disagree.

I spent this morning speaking to the CAW Inc. communications officer. He explained that there is no copyright on the name Church of All Worlds. There are other entities calling themselves Church of All Worlds.   From what I understand,  they may be splinter groups of the original CAW.  These splinter groups even share the same meeting grounds as CAW Traditions.   There may even be a CAW or two which have nothing to do with the original CAW. The original CAW went out of existence some years ago. It is returning under the name CAW Inc.  The original founders and many of the original members are involved in CAW Inc.

In my blog entry about Libertarianism and the Occult,  I mentioned that I was in contact with people who had been sexually assaulted by members of CAW and on CAW meeting grounds.   I have been assured by The information officer from CAW Inc. says that such behavior was never condoned by the original CAW.  Such behavior will not be tolerated by by the board of directors of CAW Traditions Inc.   He also stated that CAW Traditions Inc. will do their utmost to to prevent sexual abuse and to prosecute abusers if caught.

CAWInc. is in the process of recreating the CAW concept and correcting past mistakes.   While some of the people I had bad experiences with were indeed members of the old CAW, they are not members of CAW Inc.   The information officer doubts that they will ever become members of CAW Inc. The spokesman was very enthusiastic about how CAW Traditions Inc. is dedicated to creating a safe environment for everybody.  I am happy that they are receptive to the idea of creating structures to protect people from abuse.

I hope that we can keep the lines of communications open.   There are more things I would like to discuss with CAW Inc.  We never touched on the subject of victim’s rights and the difficulty of intervening in child abuse. However, for the time being, I am willing to believe that the members and board of CAW Traditions Inc are innocent of sexual abuse, harassment, and molestation.   My experiences with some of the past members of CAW were pretty ugly, and left a very bad taste in my mouth.   I think that this colored my post about libertarianism and the occult.

I have taken my blog post about Libertarianism and the occult offline.  I will be rewriting it soon.   I also invite a representative of CAW Inc. to write an article on Positive Sexuality and to post it on my blog.   I want them to include contact information so that interested parties will get in touch with the CAW Traditions Inc.  I may not agree with CAW Traditions Inc. and all it stands for, but if people are going to get involved in polyamory,  I would rather they get in touch with them instead some other people I could think of.  There are many things that CAW and I are going to have to agree to disagree on, but fair is fair.   After all the drama we went through, it is only right that I give CAW a chance to tell their side on my space.

I Think We Can All Agree That She Needs To Go

I Think We Can All Agree That She Needs To Go

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10 Comments on “CAW Inc.”

  1. Eric says:

    Thank you Bil. I also enjoyed our conversation and am glad we came to more of an understanding.

    Please allow to to correct one factual error in your post, above.

    There is no such thing as CAW Traditions, Inc. The corporate entity of the original CAW is known as Church of All Worlds, Inc.

    The concept of the Church of Al Worlds Tradition Doctrine is a document written by Ariel Monserrat and co-signe by Oberon and Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart and states that there can be many groups that may call them Church of Al Worlds and we recognize our kinship.

    Now, there is someone out there who took on the name of the Church of All Worlds Tradition Network and I have no indications he has incorporated. I feel that the use of THAT name is confusing in that the term CAW Trad was meant to indicate AL groups that have an affinity for the concepts in Heinlein’s book and are striving to manifest it in the real world.

    To Repeat.

    I represent the Church of All Worlds, Inc. as original incorporated by the founders Tim Zell and Lance Christie in 1968.

    The Church of All Worlds Tradition is a concept not meant to indicate only one group of people.

    That one person has created his Church of Al Worlds Tradition Network without the belief that he is networking various CAW Traditions. He is an entity all to his own and he is not US!

    Otherwise, We continue to agree to disagree on the point you have laid out. I have no problem with that. Many people disagree with BOTH of us, too!

    Peace
    Eric Hebert A.K.A. Eric Silverbear
    Communications Director
    Church of Al Worlds, inc.
    htp://www.caw.org

  2. billdunlap says:

    Please put the mistake down as a senior moment. I edited it out. Sorry.

  3. Eric says:

    Now *I* have to make a retraction… The CAW Traditions Doctrine was written by Liza Gabriel and not Ariel Montserrat. D’OH!!! I knew that, too, and just got the names mixed up. Oh noes! Am I starting to get senior moments, too????

    P.S. Still some CAW Tradition Incs. but I think the readers see the mistake after reading this.

  4. billdunlap says:

    I’ll find them. There is some fancy new fangled gadget that will help me find ’em.

  5. Anita Wagner says:

    “I am not going to change my stand on polyamory. I feel strongly that HIV and STDs make polyamory a dangerous idea.”

    Well, the movement is growing by leaps and bounds, and though certainly there is a level of risk, we are not dying off in droves by any means. As community values go, safer sex practices are considered an important aspect of the “responsible” in the term responsible non-monogamy. All that said, yes, of course, it’s safer to be monogamous, provided you’re lucky enough to have a partner who never, ever cheats and the statistics on cheating are alarmingly high. The only safe sex is no sex.

    “I also think that polyamory is extremely sexist. It puts the weight of the risks on the women. ”

    I don’t see how that is true as a blanket statement. Certainly HPV and the risk of cervical cancer is a problem for women, but we’re taking care of our sexual health and choosing to live a poly life after careful consideration and negotiation with our partners. I find your opinion on this rather patriarchal. We are mature women in charge of our own lives to take risks according to our own judgment – no man is forcing us to go there.

    The vast majority of the leaders of the polyamory movement are smart, savvy women who consider a poly life liberating in many ways.

    “The closest I will come to an agreement on polyamory is to agree to disagree.”

    No one can force you to have an open mind, but we can still object to blanket assertions from someone who has no way of being inside any woman’s head, doesn’t share her experiences and cannot possibly actually judge her choices fairly. What hubris.

  6. billdunlap says:

    So tell me, Anita, how many of your friends did you bury during the 80s? How many names do you know on the AIDS quilt. Just about every person I hung out with back in College is dead from AIDS. I should at the very least be a saint, because the fact that I am not dead from the disease myself is nothing less than a miracle.

    Health is not the only risk when it comes to polyamory. The day that men become pregnant is the day that polyamory becomes an equal risk for everybody. The only woman I know who came ahead from the polyamory scene back in NYC is Madonna Ciccone. (Note that she is not included as a friend.) Everyone else ended up in poverty, raising kids without the social safety net.

    It seems that Polyamory is being discovered by every age and everybody thinks it’s the greatest idea since sliced bread, and end up rediscovering the emotional dangers of polyamory. The betrayals, the destruction of trust, and the “date rapes”. My wife has a ministry for Pagan rape and sexual abuse survivors, and she has her share of former CAW members. Those are the women who helped form my stand on polyamory.

    Not hubris, just the observations of a guy who lived through the 70s and 80s. Yes you have the right to make your own decisions. You have the right to take any damn fool risk you want to take. You have the right to smoke cigarettes, shoot smack, or jump out an airplane and trust the ‘chute will open. Still, if you had seen what I seen would you make the decisions you are making now? After you attended your seventh or eighth AIDS funeral, I think you might make some different choices.

  7. Anita Wagner says:

    You missed my point. I haven’t had to attend any AIDS funerals for poly people because they haven’t happened, at least not as seems to have happened in the circles you move in. And your assertion that date rape is prevalent in the poly world – pure crap. The poly community bases its values on mutual respect. Polyfolk who don’t get that from a partner give ’em the boot.

    Perhaps your observations are biased because your wife only sees the small minority for whom polyamory goes wrong. Just like in the monogamous world, there are going to be a few bad actors who cause damage and victimize those like your wife has helped. It’s great that she does this and I appreciate it. But using what you have witnessed in CAW and your wife’s work hardly represents an unbiased sample. It’s like the so-called expert therapists who go on daytime talk shows to testify that polyamory doesn’t work, when the only poly people they ever meet are the ones who for whatever reason can’t make it work. They don’t see the many more for whom it is a valid, ethical choice and for whom it brings happiness, and clearly neither do you.

    I’ve been observing and writing about the polyamory community – amongst whom paganism is certainly well represented but nowhere close to a majority, by the way – for more than 12years now, and the sweeping generalizations you make here about polyamory have absolutely no basis in fact. They are way off base. Period. And if you were to get out of your narrow perspective and experience, you’d know that. So until you’ve really given this a realtime, fair-minded, rational assessment based on what is actually going on amongst the wide spectrum of polyamory today, please stop maligning something that your very words make clear you know very little about.

  8. billdunlap says:

    Ms. Wagner, I am Jewish. When I was a young man going to high school in Northern Florida, I was accused of being a Satanist. After all, if I didn’t believe in Jesus that meant I had to be worshiping Satan, right? You are applying the same sort of twisted logic. Just because I do not advocate the poly life style does not make me either narrow minded or bigoted. All it means is that I disagree with you. After all, you are not advocating taking away my rights, why would I advocate taking away yours?

    In order for somebody to make an informed decision on anything they have to see the downside as well as the upside. If you do not show the downside then you are proselytizing, which I have been assured that CAW INC does not do. What I have personally seen of the poly communities have been pretty god damned ugly. As a human being, as a parent, and as an American citizen I have a duty to let people know what I have seen and to let people make their own decisions.

    I will admit that I have more trouble with CAW in all its incarnations than I do with other poly communities. I can call any sex club in the world and tell them that they have a problem, and that problem is dealt with. The victim is cared for with compassion and the perp has his ass in jail and blacklisted.

    We do not have this relationship with CAW. I have been trying to have this dialog with CAW for over six years. If I needed to get in touch with the Citadel all I would have to do is pick of the phone. I want to get in touch with CAW, I need to rant on the Internet. From my POV there is something really wrong with that.

    I think that CAW’s biggest problem is that you make polyamory a religious doctrine. I think that it is a really bad idea to mix God/dess into anything. Religion can turn the best of ideas into a disaster and the worst ideas into an unmitigated fiasco. I will go to the grave with the image of the CAW priestess jumping up and down and screaming “monogamy is immoral”. Please don’t tell me she was not a CAW member. I know better. She was the sister of one of your past presidents. When you add religion into anything, the nuts come out of the woodwork and fall out of the trees.

    The ex-CAW members that my wife works with tell her that they feel as if they were raped three times. The actual attack, when they tried to report it to the police, and trying to tell their ex-CAW friends about it. They always run into “that couldn’t have happened, we worship the Goddess”. Sorry, Ms. Wagner. The gender of your make believe friends does not protect you from the ugly side of life. It does not protect you from STDs, nor does it eliminate the predators in your midst. Rather than shutting me up, maybe you should try to prove me wrong by dealing with the messes you cause instead of leaving them for my wife to clean up.

  9. David says:

    Wow, you come off as a judgmental dick. Thanks for assuming to know what is best for the rest of the world… Not. Being discerning for your own life is one thing. To judge hundreds of millions of people by the victims in your wife’s ministry is unfair. Honestly, you come off as an evangelical, and as a former evangelical minister now turned witch, I find that the born again group is made up of some of the most dysfunctional out there… It’s just that it is easier to point a finger at pagans because of an “ex-pagan victim” than it is to recognize the BS in the church being hidden behind broken lifelong Baptists in denial over their own pedophile or adulturous lifestyles.

    • Bill Dunlap says:

      And a Happy Thanksgiving to you, my friend. I mean that from the heart. For you see, I too spent too many years in the Pagan movement and regret everything. I understand why I was attracted to it in the first place. Family connections with the Gardnarians and claims of family tradition. I was also suffering from religious abuse from my grandfather. That is what got me into it in my early twenties. So let me ask you a question, David, when the fucking hell did witches start having ministries?

      Over the last thirty years, I’ve watched Pagans devolve into Baptists with Group Sex. I’ve watched the three fold law become a guilt tool for High Priestesses. At this point, I’m wondering if I even met a sane one. By the time I hit my forties, the Goddess became Jesus in drag. The concept of allowing children to learn their own paths has been sublimated into the same religious indoctrination that I suffered as a child. In the light of reason, the differences between your religion and any other religion in America cannot be seen.

      This became clear to me when I discovered that a girl had been horribly abused and the CAW not only covered it up, but worked to keep the father from going to jail. Sound familiar, David? Not only was CAW doing the exact same thing as the Catholic Church. but related groups even took the girl out of the state to protect the father. At that point, the straw broke the camel’s back.

      I had no choice but to confront the fact that I had been making a fool of myself for nearly 30 years. My beliefs were as meaningless as the Baptists, the Catholics, or the Mormons and no less ridiculous. The American Neo-Pagan movement has become no different than all the others. It’s based on the same false premise as any other, that there is a higher power in charge. So Happy Thanksgiving, David, you’re following in the same American tradition.

      BTW, please note that I paid you the courtesy of posting your reply without an edit, even though you did call me a dick. That’s called intellectual honesty.


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